Talk:Yes (band)

Lead edits (November 2024)

@Tbf62: Thanks for your edit. Just to explain my thinking a bit and see if we can come to a consensus. My feeling is that the lead right now reads like a huge list of names (compare one of those Bible chapters of Joe begat Fred who begat Jane who begat.... :P). Per WP:SUMMARYSTYLE, it should summarize the most important points in the article; if someone comes here who has never heard of Yes, they are probably looking for a summary of the band's main achievements and history, not a long laundry list of names.

In terms of specific things, I get wanting to mention Moraz, but he was ultimately with the group for only one album, and receives relatively less coverage in the article (mentioned only three times, and we don't mention Oliver Wakeman and Benoit David in the lead). Horn and Downes are worth mentioning, but I tried to edit it so they are only mentioned once. I think the fact Wakeman left for two years is broadly not notable for the purposes of the lead which is already quite long.

The other goal I had was to get the paragraph of history since 2009 as short as possible (as it's relatively less notable compared to the more successful 1970s history), which I hope that I've done a reasonable good job of. I could be convinced of removing the mention of Yes featuring ARW also (since they never released an album). It's all a judgment call as to what's most important to mention in the lead here -- I'm increasingly thinking it should say more about history, musical style, etc. and less about specific lineup changes.

Your thoughts would be welcome, thanks! Caleb Stanford (talk) 21:32, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for addressing my last edit. I understand, and mostly agree, with your feelings about the lead. I just felt that while Moraz' time with Yes was short-lived, his contribution to Relayer was crucial, and that is one of Yes' most acclaimed albums, so I felt he at least deserved a mention. But if you and other editors feel it isn't necessary, then I am happy to leave it (no pun intended), as I have no wish to start an edit war. Tbf62 (talk) 22:04, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

@Tbf62: Thank you for your understanding! Maybe a compromise we could do here is mention Moraz but keep the structure (and omit Wakeman leaving etc.) I'll go ahead and do that but happy to hear other 3rd opinions here as well. Best, Caleb Stanford (talk) 01:41, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Moraz's contribution

Patrick Moraz

@Tbf62: @Tenebra Blu: anonymous edit diff

Re: recent edits on Moraz's contribution:

This message turned out quite a bit longer than I intended. I looked into three sources: my copy of Close to the Edge: The Story of Yes (Welch, 2008 edition), All My Yesterdays (Howe, 2021), and this interview recorded by the website DMME.

I think we all love the work that Patrick Moraz did on Relayer! At the same time, we would do best (and give Moraz's work the most justice) to lean on what the sources have to say on the matter. On Relayer, a large portion of the writing work was already done before Moraz rehearsed and was selected to join the band. According to Howe:

Jon and I had written ‘To Be Over’ while ‘Sound Chaser’ and ‘The Gates Of Delirium’ were group compositions.

— Steve Howe, All My Yesterdays

and Welch, describing the timeline of Moraz's additions to the album:

The group hastily recruited Patrick Moraz who stayed for three productive years...

— Welch (2008)

Patrick finally made his decision and told Brian Lane he would be happy to join Yes. "I was always fascinated by their music and I thought they were brilliant. I went to the rehearsal and Brian Lane almost ran over me in his car! It was late, it was raining and he didn’t recognise me. He took me in his car to Rickmansworth and saw the very core of the band at work. They had already been preparing material for the Relayer album. When I heard them play ‘Sound Chaser’ I was blown away. It was unbelievable. They had already been there a couple of months so they had the best sound possible." Eddie Offord was there with a 24-track recording desk and Patrick’s contribution to ‘Sound Chaser’ was recorded that same day and ended up on the album.

— Welch (2008)

In the DMME interview (I suspect it to be reliable, though should be used carefully in accordance with WP:USESPS), Moraz agrees his contributions were somewhat more limited in the album, but also claims he was uncredited for contributions to Going for the One:

[DMME:] “Relayer” is a great piece of work. But don’t you think that you weren’t given as much space as was Rick and the album is dominated by Steve Howe’s guitar?

[Moraz:] When we started to record “Relayer”, some of the music had already been written and rehearsed by Chris, Jon, Steve and Alan. I contributed as much as I could to the overall picture of the pieces. However, it is a fact that Steve used quite a lot of tracks for his many overdubs everywhere on the album, except when there is no guitar at all, which is a rare occasion.

[D:] All the tracks on the album are credited to all YES members. Who do you used to compose with and who you were close with the most?

[M:] We all participated in the compositions and the final arrangements, even if most of the “songs” were originally composed somewhat more by Jon, and Steve in some instances. I liked to work with Jon and Chris, especially. Alan was always contributing some very good rhythmic ideas. I also worked quite a lot with Steve during the whole time I was in YES.

[D:] You left YES while writing material for the upcoming “Going For The One” album. What was written before you left that ended up on the record?

[M:] We had written, together, quite a lot of the material which ended up on “Going For The One”, like “Awaken”, “Wondrous Stories” or even “Parallels” which were as much part my composition as anyone else in the band at that time. I also came up, during the two previous years prior to the recording of “Going For The One”, with a lot of ideas and contributions to the band and its sound. The fact that I was not credited as a writer of the songs, does not mean I did not compose for the group. As a member of the band, I composed as much as I could, as much as I was “allowed” to compose by the others.

[D:] Were you forced to leave or parting company was friendly?

[M:] Unfortunately, I was forced to leave....

— Interview with PATRICK MORAZ, December 2000

Despite the apparently short timeline on the recording for "Sound Chaser" (see Welch above), multiple sources note Moraz's distinctive keyboard work and unique jazz influence on the sound, especially on "Sound Chaser" and "Gates of Delirium"; however, it is also described as being overshadowed in "fighting to be heard" over Howe's guitar tracks:

‘The Gates Of Delirium’, inspired by Tolstoy’s War And Peace, reaches a fever pitch of instrumental intensity in which Patrick Moraz fights to be heard amidst the dense layers of guitar tracks...

— Welch (2008)

‘Sound Chaser’ contained some brilliant instrumental work and some of Chris Squire’s best bass work on record. Patrick Moraz also made his presence felt here. But the confused structure of the piece, with its changes in tempo and violent excesses, helps explain why Rick Wakeman didn’t want tobe [sic] involved.

— Welch (2008)

For Howe's part, I find it telling that he seems to have more to say about Moraz's contributions to his solo album, Beginnings, than his contributions to Yes itself, in his autobiography (All My Yesterdays), devoting many more pages to the topic. In the Acknowledgments, speaking about the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame ceremony, he credits Moraz, in a list along with many others who “so deserved a mention on that night”, “for his amazing keyboards on Relayer.” (All my Yesterdays, p. 328). In the pages describing the development of Relayer, he specifically praises Moraz's stage presence: "“Live, he was a secret weapon, deployed to attack preconceptions, displace loyalties and perform as inspiringly as Vangelis might have done.” (p. 110). However, the most he says about Moraz's work for the Relayer recording itself is on "Sound Chaser": "The point where Patrick joins with the string chords really took some working out." (p. 112)

For Moraz's part, he describes his tenure with Yes in very fond terms, but also as somewhat of a learning experience (having already been a fan of the band before):

I saw Yes as a school. I recorded an album with them and did many tours, and really got into the way they arranged and composed their music. It gave me a deep insight into that kind of music. Yes music is vastly superior to any other group’s music I have heard...

— Welch (2008)

Finally, ending with a couple of more minor mentions, here's Igor Khoroshev on Moraz's musical versatility:

"[Igor Khoroshev:] Wakeman is into synthesisers and piano, but Tony Kaye is into organ, while Patrick Moraz can do it all. That was his problem really. He should try not to solo so much on top of tunes like ‘Roundabout’. He plays like a non-stop machine! I love the guy but he’s constantly soloing!"

— Welch (2008)

and Howe on his contributions to Going for the One and departure:

We began work with Patrick Moraz still on keyboards but after first two weeks he felt it wasn’t working. He wanted us to be a bit jazzier. ‘Nope, that’s never going to happen,’ we told him. We did make a big effort to get going again with him, before realising it was all over.”

— Steve Howe, All My Yesterdays

Overall, it's clear that Moraz contributed somewhat to Relayer, and to a lesser extent, to Going for the One, even though his contributions aren't described in a way that I would interpret as being a major (or, say, majority) influence on the way either album turned out (that probably goes to Anderson and Howe, for Relayer). At the same time, that caps his overall contribution at, at most, significantly impacting one album and partially impacting another (and neither album that was quite as commercially successful as the previous Fragile era). Add to that the fact that Rock and Roll Hall of Fame chooses not to credit him for the big award, and the overall effect is that I'm not sure that's enough for him to be one of the "most notable members" of the band.

All that being said: I'm in favor of keeping the mention of him in the lead, when we say that he joins for Relayer. That is, I like best the version of the article after Tenebra Blue's edit here.

Did I miss anything from the other sources I didn't look at? Thoughts and input welcome! Thanks, Caleb Stanford (talk) 19:35, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

Hi Caleb. Thank you for all that info. For my part i'm happy to leave Moraz out of the opening paragraph, although I think he deserves at least a mention somewhere in the lead, considering that Trevor Horn and Benoit David, both of whom were also only members for one studio album (not counting Horn's work as a producer), get a mention. I agree that Tenebra Blue's edit is probably the best compromise. Tbf62 (talk) 20:56, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

@Caleb Stanford: Thank you for documenting this information on Moraz's contributions. If it hasn't been done already, I encourage you to add some of these references and quotes to the Wikipedia pages to Patrick Moraz, Relayer, and Going for the One, where applicable. These articles are already comprehensive, but further context is often appreciated. Dobbyelf62 (talk) 21:48, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

@Tbf62: Sounds good, thanks! Absolutely re: mentioning in lead.

@Dobbyelf62: Thanks! That is a much appreciated suggestion & I will see if I have time to do so! Caleb Stanford (talk) 22:59, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

I join in the thanks to Caleb. I simply made a minor edit as I did not find the previous anonymous edit to be incorrect. Although Relayer is one of the most appreciated Yes albums, I am not sure that Moraz can be counted among the most notable members. --Tenebra Blu (talk) 00:47, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

I fully agree with your conclusions. Honestly, I find it hard to defend mentioning Moraz as a most notable member and leaving Billy Sherwood out, considering that Sherwood has been working for the band in different positions for the last 35 years. I mean, I think it is hard to find objective reasons. Better the way it is now. Gorpik (talk) 07:19, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

I also think that Moraz does not warrant being mentioned in the opening paragraph. The opening paragraph currently mentions the 8 members who were on Union. They were all on multiple studio albums each. I think they are generally seen as the names most associated with Yes. If you are going to expand that list, there are arguments that Banks, Horn, Downes or Sherwood warrant inclusion before Moraz. (Downes and Sherwood do get mentioned later in the paragraph for being in the current line-up, which makes sense.) Bondegezou (talk) 10:44, 3 April 2025 (UTC)